Red Dead Racer?

[RedRacer]

Well, got trapped in a MAJOR flash flood. Drove in behind a truck, couldn't see the water ahead due to the blindingly heavy rainfall, before I saw the depth of the water I was headed directly for, it was too late. Nothing I could do.

Was only going about 10-15 miles an hour..... The car stopped dead. I almost made it through and up the incline. Front tires were firmly attached to pavement, back tires were just barely making contact with the pavement. The back end of the car was actually being lifted up by the water/waves as pickup trucks, etc. drove through on the left of me.

No water inside the car though. Only got right to the very edge of the lower door seal. At least that's good. So the computer in the floor-pan didn't get wet.

Couple of guys were nice enough to stop in the flood and push me out to the end of the road where it was downhill grade. I coasted from there down to a parking lot.

Have electric, but when I try to crank it, the dash lights and everything dim out and nothing happens.

Kind of a muted thump sound as the lights on the dash go black. No starter noise, nothing turning over at that point.

I think it's a bad thing.

I want to say that it's not hydrolocked --- but then, my luck and gut tell me different.

Left it in the lot. Too much rain, lightning. Got a ride home.

Will go check it in the morning.

I guess I could have had my answer if I had engaged the clutch when it was rolling down the hill. But probably best that I didn't do that.

Who knows.

I feel sick at my stomach now. Stupid stupid stupid. Something told me to wait before I drove in that rainstorm, but NOOOOO, I had to go then.

So -- anybody want to hazard a guess?

[RedRacer]

(in case you missed it, the subject line is my attempt at trying to find humor in being clever in a really negative situation. Red Dead Revolver is the name of an an old PS2 game that was a lot of fun back in the day)

When the weather finally let up I headed back down to the lot where the car is currently parked.

First thing I did was pull the air filter out - soaked.

So yeah, water in the engine. No doubt.

I wasn't traveling at a high speed when this happened, in fact, I was panicking at that point and had already begun to apply the brakes to try and not drive into the water and not drive into the other cars around me whose drivers were panicking as well.....everybody had come to a crawl and you couldn't see the other cars around you, so the engine was definitely not running at high revs, might have just been a little over 1500 rpms or so. That could be a blessing.

I also attempted one last crank. Still nothing. Same dull thump kinda sound, and the dash lights draw down - i.e. the engine saying "I CAN'T TURN OVER, PLEASE STOP TRYING TO START ME!"

Wasn't much in the mood for video recording, but this is EXACTLY what Red is doing when I turn the key.
http://youtu.be/eCHqkGpm_Zc

Having it towed to my builder in the morning. Will know then. He seems optimistic. I'm rather a pessimist, so all I can see is a new motor -- will update.

PRAY FOR THE CAR. lol AND ME!

[spiffyguido]

Holy cow......your poor luck with inclement weather continues....

Although I wasn't there, I'm optimistic based on your description. If your air filter was soaked, there very likely is water in the engine, but that doesn't mean that enough got in to break some of your rods. My guess is that your cylinders each have a small pool of water in them that just needs to be burped out. I've seen this many times.

Whatever you do, don't try to start the car anymore. First, pull out your spark plugs and run the starter. If there's water in your cylinders, it will be forcibly ejected by the piston motion. Do NOT have your face in the way when this happens because the water comes out with surprising force (personal experience). During the course of the ChumpCar race I recently participated we managed to get some water in the cylinders and that engine made a sound exactly like you're describing. We just pulled the plugs, ran the starter to dry out the cylinders and then put the plugs back and she fired right up.

Because you were going so slow with low rpm and didn't try to bump start it on your way down the hill, I don't think any of your internals will be broken. At that engine speed, the water probably would have just stalled the car. If anything did break, it would've happened when you tried to run the starter (which commands exceptional leverage on the engine due to its tiny drive gear on the huge flywheel). Were this the case, you almost certainly would have heard the un-delightful sound of a rod or two snapping or your starter coming apart. Your electrics were probably thoroughly water-logged at the time as well and not much in the mood for starting the car. Let the old girl dry out, get the cylinders dry, and try again. I'm confident the old girl will burble back to life.

To our other readers, a profound lesson can be learned here. Flash floods do happen, no matter where you live. All it takes is one storm drain to fill up and the area you are in can fill with water in a BIG hurry. In the case of a friend of mine, it happened in a mall parking lot (yes, a mall). A seemingly flat parking lot became a 6-foot deep lake in a matter of minutes with the Nissan Sentra he was driving in the middle of it. Fortunately for him, he had the good sense to execute correct flash-flood procedure:

Step 1: Once the water is above font-bumper level or you feel the car floating, kill the engine immediately! Wait to long, and you risk totally destroying the motor. Worst case, your rods snap and shred your internals.

Step 2: Roll down a window for yourself and make sure your passengers do the same.

Step 3: Unbuckle.

Step 4: Look outside the car. If there's a wicked current in the water, stay in the car for a moment. Cars will float for a few minutes ordinarily, and can be your personal life-raft if you're suddenly in the middle of a raging river of water.

Step 5: If the car starts to tip, fill with water, or the water looks calm enough for safe swimming, get the hell out of the car and get walk/swim to the nearest higher ground. In boating this would be called 'abandoning ship'. You no longer care about your car. It will sink, or float however physics dictates. Do NOT stay near the car. If it continues sinking or rolls over it could pin you beneath it. Swim away from it.

Step 6: Stay safe, and wait until it's perfectly safe to go collect your water-logged automobile and begin repairs.

I'm reminded of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aQySL0s ... re=related

In the meantime, let's all pray for RedRacer and his 4th gen lude 'Red'. I know I am.

Awaiting updates....

[RedRacer]

Thanks Spiffy! Your words of encouragement might just help me sleep tonight.

While I still feel down about the matter, I am still holding on to hope that maybe it's not as bad as it could be.

That engine has proven tough and strong in the past with near misses, so hopefully the quality of Honda engineering and build. will come through for me once again. Fingers crossed.

Will update as soon as I know anything.

[RedRacer]

News I know -

LOT of water in there. Lot. Took off the intake tube and it alone had like a couple of quarts of water in it.

Pulled the plugs, ran the starter, blew out water. Cylinder one full of water, cylinder two a little less, and then maybe some in cylinders three and four.

Used a vacuum pump to get out remaining water and used compressed air to blow out the ports and areas surrounding.

Put in new plugs and cranked.

Nothing. Just starter turning over, crank turning, pistons pushing, but nothing firing.

Pulled the plugs, got more water out, dried out things a little more, manually squirted oil into each cylinder, put the spark plugs back in. Turned the starter and still, same result .. NOTHING.

Compression check time -

Number 1, a little over 100.
Number 2, nothing. 0.
Number 3, about 75.
Number 4, about 90.

Put a little more oil, replaced the plugs, cranked, and still nothing firing over.

Pulled the plugs, sucked out some more water, checked compression.
Number 1 around 75.
Number 2 nothing. 0.
Number three around 90
Number four around 100.

Sooooo -- he's confused. To have such fluctuating compression numbers, he thinks it's not a bend problem, but a cylinder wash problem because there was so much water ... oil washes away, cylinders are bare, no seal for rings, no compression.

He's going to let it dry out for a day and continue to mess with it and see.

Fingers are still crossed.

Oddly enough, when the tow truck showed up this morning to meet me and get my car, there was a black Prelude on the flatbed. He was dropping that one off at the place where I rolled mine to. He loaded mine up and hauled it to my shop, which coincidentally enough, is about three blocks from where he picked up the black Prelude that broke down!! Odd.

Oh, and my insurance pays for my towing! Got all of that back.

As already said, fingers still crossed.

[spiffyguido]

Thanks for the update.

I'm guessing that the compression numbers are out of wack because there's no seal around the rings due to your oil being full of water. The fact that number 2 got zero compression both times around is slightly concerning though. Perhaps that cylinder had a big gulp of water and something seized up. Stuck valve maybe?

Cycle some cheap oil through the old girl to try and get the water out and see if that helps things. I'd have half a mind to drop the oil pan and sift the bottom of it for parts. The cylinder rods and cranks in Honda engines are bloody strong, so if the cylinder did hydrolock it could've bent a valve or popped a hole in the top of your piston. It's also very possible that the rings on #2 just need some oil before you'll get any compression numbers at all. If there was a hole in the top end somewhere, you'd hear the intake wheezing as the starter is being run for compression tests.

I'm still feeling good about this. The fact that you're getting some compression on 3/4 cylinders is a very good sign, and I still haven't heard you mention anything about the engine sounding like an episode of 'Will It Blend' when you turn it over. Honda quality triumphs again!

[RedRacer]

Home again, home again, jiggity jig! To quote a line from one of my favorite sci-fi movies, Bladerunner.

RedRacer lives!

I got a call about 4 pm from my mechanic asking me if I would be interested in buying a slightly used 1995 Honda Prelude that runs and drives, for the small amount of $260.62? To which I said YES!

Compression on the cold motor was a little over 105 on each cylinder. Engine does tach out, and she runs just about like she did before. A bit rough at idle and when started, but the burble goes away.

No sounds from the engine, just as quiet as she was before. Which, for an engine with that many miles, is pretty quiet. Need to work the valves at some point soon anyway, but not because they're noisy or tapping. Just needs to be done. Last time I pulled it apart to adjust, they didn't need adjusting.

SO! Seems that (so far) Honda quality and Honda engineering from the old school Honda, shows its serious might!

Guys, if you had seen how much water came out of that intake tube and how much water came out of the first two cylinders, you really would be saying to yourselves "NO FREAKIN WAY THIS ENGINE IS RUNNING!". And I can't believe it either, but it does happen.

Proof that not all hydrolocked motors are killed instantly. The fact that I was running at such low rpm's, and because the water swamped everything so fast and with so much volume, I really think that helped save the day. I also think the water shut the car off electrically before or right as it got into the engine.

NOW - as there is no obvious damage, no bad sounds or knocking or wheezing, that doesn't mean that there isn't some form of very minor fractured damage that say, in a week or two months from now might send a piston and rod or two, through the block......... Again, FINGERS CROSSED!

Drove her home, ran her hard through a couple of gears for a few seconds. Put her up on ramps in the garage to let her drain down, as there was water still coming out of the exhaust pipe on the trip home, from where the rear end sat submerged for 20 minutes. Friend following me home said I was blowing water out of the pipes at every stop light for about 4 or 5 miles! OH MY GOD! Yes, that much water was under and in parts of my car where water should never go. Amazing and amazed.

Going to drive her around for the next few days, get things warmed up and dried out.

Changed the oil, and will change it every week for the next month in order to cycle out any and all remaining water. Will then replace with quality new oil and Honda filter. For now, cheap oil change places for the next 4 weeks.

If things go well, I say we'll be back to normal in a few weeks. I sure hope so.

AGAIN - I dodged a bullet (so far) on yet another close/serious call.

Thanks for the moral support!

Will keep you updated as we heal.

~ J

[spiffyguido]

Awesome. So glad to hear that you're back on the road. Drive her lots over the next couple of weeks to run all the water out of the system, and yes, lots of cheap oil changes are certainly in order.

[wickwear]

Nothing like a good ending.....Thanks for sharing, I have learned a lot from this thread. I know someday the desert monsoon will attack and now I am ready
Thanks again!

[RedRacer]

Thanks wick! And if you have any questions about my learning experience, feel free to ask. I'll gladly share what I have learned and what all I know!

[RedRacer]

UPDATE:

So far so good.

I changed out the distributor cap and rotor. Cleaned the throttle body and butterfly valve. Greased up the throttle linkage, it had developed a stick, or the butterfly in the throttle body had, and the accelerator pedal wouldn't give when you first put your foot on it. Had to keep tapping the pedal to make it break free. ANNOYING. But cleaning the throttle and the linkage seemed to do the trick.

Getting some misses when running through the gears. Seems more noticeable on hills or under stronger pull. Also feeling some kind of very minute and short-lived "shutter" when starting off from a stop. Can't really discern where it seems to be emanating from. Not sure this "vibration" is new and because of the water, or just something I had never noticed before.
Which is possible because right now I am hyper-sensitive to everything that makes a noise or sound or vibration.. just a little paranoid I guess you could call me.

Not sure about the missing and the rough running. I'm guessing it's just the engine still having some water inside and it getting mixed up with the combustion process. Hoping it will clean up in a week or two and start running the way I am used to her running.

[spiffyguido]

Did you ever pull the EACV and IAC valves off the engine to empty them out? In theory water could get trapped in either of them because they have air tracts connected to the intake.

Actually, come to think of it, any of your vacuum lines are liable to be a little bit damp right now. That might be where some of the stuttering is coming from. Your poor engine is probably still a little gooed up from being water-logged. I'm sure all the componentry will find its happy place soon and all will be running as before.

[RedRacer]

Actually Spiffy, I didn't even think about breaking those open and cleaning them up. Will probably do that this weekend.

As things tend to break and parts tend to fly into black holes when I work on cars, I stay away from doing too much myself. I know how, and can do it, just never have good luck when I do the work. Last time I pulled the plugs, I managed to break one off IN THE HEAD. Don't ask.

I might take it back to the mech and let him do it.

Actually, I think the stuttering and jerking might be related to the EGR system, and mine, unlike all others I have seen, does not have screws on the back of the rail to open up and remove the top. It's as if it were welded sealed and then the welds covered over in silver putty like sealer that has hardened. You can see from the way it looks that it was done at the factory, not by someone else....and since I know all work that has been done on this car, I can attest that the EGR system has never been cracked open...... anyway, I think that might be the origin of the missing that I am feeling. It was starting to act up last year -- just never got around to getting it opened up and getting in there and cleaning it out.

When I pull the wiring harness for the EGR, the engine evens out and runs a lot smoother, hence my deduction that the misses and stutters I felt prior to the water, is the EGR system.

Could also be that the EGR issue is just amplified a little now with moisture in the system.

It's only been 170 something miles since the "unterseeboot" incident, so I'm sure that a lot of this will go away with time.

I appreciate all your suggestions, and moral support, Harley. Thanks!

[RedRacer]

Aren't the IACV and ECAV the same?

Tonight was the worst so far. Started the car, drove off in first gear, reached about 20 mph and then BAM, engine bogged completely down, like somebody had slammed on the brakes or just turned off the engine. Then BAM, cleared up, and took off. Snatched my head back like I had Knight Rider Turbo Boost installed! Did it again, and again and again. Kept doing it at every gear change or every traffic light start from idle stop.

Now it has done this same thing in the past, for many years, but it only ever happens one time, usually after having just been cranked and driven off, bogs out a second, give it gas, get a backfire in the manifold and that's the end of it. Doesn't do it repeatedly. Never has before tonight.

This time, got no backfire, and it didn't stop doing it.

Finally shut her down, let her sit, tried again. Same thing. Then at the next light, expecting it to do it, it didn't. Started running just fine. Jumped on the highway and ran 20 miles home at 85 mph. No issues.

Was having idle issues earlier in the day. Kept dying at stops with the AC on. I brought the idle screw up all the way to stop, and it didn't cause the engine to idle up very much, if any. Turn it all the way down and the idle does drop to bottom. Kind of reached a happy medium. Idling about where it should now.

Water in the system you think? No CEL's anywhere.

I've pulled the battery. Going to let the computer's fuzzy logic erase overnight then remap it in the morning and see what happens. Open for other ideas Spiff..... chime in whenever you have time.

[spiffyguido]

My car had a bogging issue that sounds very similar, and it was the EACV (not the same as IAC / Fast-Idle). I'll try to describe the symptoms:

At any RPM under about 3500, the car would bog violently (as if fuel was being cut) unless I really put my foot into the throttle. It made the car very difficult to drive because it would bog through corners and lunge forward at the weirdest times. It took me a lot of reading to figure out what was wrong.

My first attempt at a repair was just to put a piece of cardboard (cereal box) in between the EACV and the intake plenum to negate the sensor. This actually improved things a great deal and made the car usable again while I hunted for a replacement EACV. Found one in the junkyard one day, slotted it in and haven't had a problem since.

I should add, that I've also seen bogging issues in a 4th gen related to a bad TPS sensor. The symptoms were a little different. In that case, the car was completely unwilling to do more than about 2500rpm. Try to take the engine higher and it would fall flat on its face until idle RPM was reached, at which point it would sort itself out and take off again until about 2500rpm, where it would again fall on its face and the cycle would repeat.

The EACV is located on the front of the intake plenum. It will have two water lines coming out of it. Cylindrical in shape, mounted horizontally. The plug to it is often green. My guess is the whole thing is probably gooed up from your Lude's swimming trip.

Remove. Clean. Replace. Bleed coolant lines.

I've attached the page from the manual.