Hmm, help?

Fourth Generation Honda Prelude topics

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spiffyguido
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Re: Hmm, help?

Post by spiffyguido »

There is no easy way to clean inside a cylinder that I know of without taking off the head. You probably don't need to be too concerned though. You're probably just seeing the build up of soot on the top of the piston.

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Tallrunner68
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Re: Hmm, help?

Post by Tallrunner68 »

Oh no, I think you misunderstood. I mean that the spark plug holes are dirty, not past the threads and into the cylinder.

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Re: Hmm, help?

Post by Tallrunner68 »

Well, followed the instructions on the valve adjustment video but have no idea how its running because I still can't get it to start. I changed the spark plugs in hopes that those were the problem. In retrospect I should have also tested for spark before installing all of them. That will be the next step in diagnosing I suppose. At this point I am pretty confident about a couple of things. Since the timing belt was intact and in decent shape I don't think that it jumped time. I tested the fuel pressure on the rail and it is definitely getting fuel. I haven't done a compression test, but while initially turning the engine with the old plugs still in I could feel the pressure of the cylinders compressing, so i assume its not a compression problem. No blockage in the air intake or TB and I am assuming the IM is clear, so it is most likely getting air. That leaves me with spark, so possible a bad distributor. The plugs (NGKs) are brand new this weekend. According to the previous owner he had put on a new distributor and plug wires. The plug wires (also NGKs) do look fairly new. But it would seem that he chose a cheap generic distributor, and I have read that its best to go with a Honda replacement. I have no idea how many miles are on the distributor he put in, so I will check for spark and move forward from there i guess. I have checked my firing order as well, but since it went out mid drive I had already assumed that wasn't the initial problem.

I am attaching a link to a video of me trying to start the car. I apologize for the vertical video, my wife was filming with her phone. Anyway, what you can't hear in the video is the popping from the tailpipe as the car back fires a little. If anyone recognizes this behavior I would love to heard your take on it. I would really like to get her back on the road.

http://youtu.be/dJHbpM-svvE

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spiffyguido
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Re: Hmm, help?

Post by spiffyguido »

If the distributor was recently replaced with a potentially bad one that's a potential area to investigate.

Testing for spark isn't actually that hard. You can disconnect the fuel injector from one cylinder and then pull the spark plug from that same cylinder. Touch the threads of the spark plug to the engine block while it is plugged into the plug wire and have someone try to start the car. You should see sparking. If you don't that's trouble.

A couple of safety notes related to doing this:

-Be certain that you have disconnected the fuel injector plug for the cylinder that you are testing. If you try and start an engine with the plug out you will get a mist of fuel shooting out of the plug hole. Mix that with you holding the spark plug and I think you see the potential for some serious burns.
-Make sure you are grounding the plug to the engine block and NEVER let it ground to you while the car is cranking. Voltage is stepped up in a coil and getting shocked by a spark plug would be painful indeed.

Check your plug gaps too, if you haven't already.

Also, RE: the timing. Even without a timing light you can check if the timing is roughly correct just by lining up all the TDC notches.

Tallrunner68
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Re: Hmm, help?

Post by Tallrunner68 »

Alright, a bit of an update even though it has been quite a while. I was able to test the spark plugs and I was getting spark on all plugs. So at this point i have spark, air, and fuel. I assume I also have compression since I could feel the resistance while I manually turned the engine. The TDC both appeared to be in time while i had the valve cover off as well. At this point I have no idea what the problem is, all I know is that i still can't get it started. I wish I had more time to tinker with it and I should once I mike it thru my busy season. For now though I have contacted a mobile mechanic to try and at least diagnose the problem, even when I warned him that it isn't throwing any codes and that I have tried myself to diagnose. He is a professional though and I am just a shade tree mechanic myself, so maybe I will see some forward progress. I really enjoy the car and I am not ready to scrap or sell it just yet. Hoping I can get her back on the road. If anyone has any suggestions, some off the wall problem they ran into or step that I might have missed throw it my way. I am more than open to ideas.

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spiffyguido
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Re: Hmm, help?

Post by spiffyguido »

Fuel, air, spark should do it.

Does it try to start at all when you turn the engine over, or does it refuse to do anything but just crank and crank?

I know you stated earlier that you had taken a look at the main relay and attempted a fix. Are you confident that there aren't any outstanding issues there?

Are you confident that the switching mechanisms in your ignition are working alright? I had an ignition switch go bad in a 2nd gen prelude years ago. The car would crank and crank, the engine would 'start' but the minute I let the starter stop the engine would die because the contact between the 'On' position of the key had degraded. It's a small thing to check.

Check your wiring sequence out of your distributor against the manual. The cylinders are numbered 1 thru 4 starting at the pulley side.

Are there any other immobilizers on the car? For example, did/does the car have an alarm that might be faulting out the starting sequence? ECU is good? Is an anti-theft system engaged?

Tallrunner68
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Re: Hmm, help?

Post by Tallrunner68 »

I guess I can't guarantee that the main relay is functioning without swapping in one that I know works. As far as ignition, I don't believe it's starting at all. I have read about the issue of the if it ion switch, an holding it in a forward position keep it running, but like I said I don't think it is starting at all. There is an alarm, but I am able to disarm it. I didn't install it so I don't know much about it. I don't know if it would even crank if the alarm was going off. So I don't know if there are any other issues that could be immobilizing it. The distributor and wires are marked so should be correct. Guess I can look for a tried and true main relay and try that.

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Re: Hmm, help?

Post by spiffyguido »

Any chance you can disconnect the alarm entirely to take it out of the picture? Some alarms can go into a full disable mode where they assume the car has been stolen and become unresponsive except to a special reset. On a car I had, this happened once after I had been disconnecting and reconnecting the battery several times. The alarm had a hidden button that had to be pushed and held to fully reset. The assumption is that the true owner of the car would know where the button is and would be able to restore the car's functionality.

No idea if this could be the case with yours though. I'm sure there's many different types of alarm functionality out there.

Tallrunner68
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Re: Hmm, help?

Post by Tallrunner68 »

I will look tonight to see if I can't find the alarm computer and look for a button. Or at least get the information on it from the net. I hadn't thought much about the alarm mostly due to the fact that the car cut out while driving and I didn't think they alarm would have caused that. At this point though I am open to all ideas and I will check the alarm first, then look into the main relay. I posted a video a few posts up of me trying to crank it if you want to get a good idea of what it is doing. We had snow here last week (a rare event in the south) so it threw everything out of whack and I haven't been able to get the mobile mechanic to come take a look yet.

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spiffyguido
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Re: Hmm, help?

Post by spiffyguido »

Link to the video?

Tallrunner68
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Re: Hmm, help?

Post by Tallrunner68 »

http://youtu.be/dJHbpM-svvE

I apologize for the vertical video, used my phone and my wife was recording.

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spiffyguido
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Re: Hmm, help?

Post by spiffyguido »

Yeah. It doesn't try to start at all.

Tricky tricky tricky. You have fuel, spark and air. That leaves you with either really bad timing problems or electrical gremlins.

A car that cranks, has fuel and spark should at least burble or try to start.

Your engine does sound like it's cranking a little slowly. Not enough to prevent a start though. Time for a compression test perhaps? A compression tester is very easy to use and not expensive.

Tallrunner68
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Re: Hmm, help?

Post by Tallrunner68 »

Hmm, yeah I had a feeling it was not gonna be easy. But I did look see that the timing belt was intact and decent condition and the TDC lined up correctly. Or at least I think they were. They both pointed perpidicular to the head. I will try and get a picture the next time I have a chance to take off the valve cover.

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Re: Hmm, help?

Post by spiffyguido »

With timing, when the notches on the cam gears line up with the deck of the head you should be able to see the TDC mark through the transmission bell housing window. If you can, your timing is close enough to start the car.

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Re: Hmm, help?

Post by Preludedude »

Clean all your grounds, if you need to make sure crack your fuel line and turn the key to make sure fuel is making it that far, check the fuel filter. maybe by some act of god your fuel line that is attached to the fuel pump came off. i did see you said your battery die when it was parked and that why i am suggesting to clean the grounds. there is 3 in the top on the engine bay and another under the car on the passenger side near the transmission (may be more i just know of those spiffyguido might now). how old is your stater, maybe it is not strong enough to start the car. and when you do a compression test if you have the H22? you should have 215 compression.



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