Good info on the 3rd Gen. I have a B21A1 (both block and head) I am probably looking at a total rebuild of the engine. I bought the engine from a junkyard because I bought the car with a blown motor the kid threw a rod right thru the front of the motor . After I got the motor in I am experiencing a little bit of smoking out the exhaust at a high rev, doesn't smoke at an idle, either the rings or the valve guide seals. I read on the forums already about the B21A1's AFC coated bore sleeves, and they are rough on the rings. If I am going to pull this motor again I wanted to do it up right. Can you add turbo power to these motors? And if so where can I find a kit? Thanks
90Luder2.05 aka (Rob)
B21A1 Questions
Moderators: RedRacer, spiffyguido
-
spiffyguido
- Moderator
- Posts: 2196
- Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:55 am
- Prelude Model: 1991 SE-SR
- Location: Alberta, Canada
- Contact:
-
90Luder2.05
- Lude Dude
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:52 pm
Its black or dark color not white or grey I once blew a head gasket on an ol Supra so I am pretty familiar with blowing head gaskets. Plus the whole back end of my car gets covered with oil specs all over.
Just wondering I am about to run a compression test on the engine, what is the normal psi of a cylinder on the B21A1? I guess it doesn't mater that much as long as all of them are close to the same right?
Its funny though the car runs great, doesn't overheat just needs oil added every once and a while. I don't drive it that much now I just drive in back and forth to work from time to time.
As far as the turbo goes I guess first thing is to find a turbo exhaust intake? (I'll try ebay like you said)
Thanks
90 Luder
Just wondering I am about to run a compression test on the engine, what is the normal psi of a cylinder on the B21A1? I guess it doesn't mater that much as long as all of them are close to the same right?
Its funny though the car runs great, doesn't overheat just needs oil added every once and a while. I don't drive it that much now I just drive in back and forth to work from time to time.
As far as the turbo goes I guess first thing is to find a turbo exhaust intake? (I'll try ebay like you said)
Thanks
90 Luder
-
spiffyguido
- Moderator
- Posts: 2196
- Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:55 am
- Prelude Model: 1991 SE-SR
- Location: Alberta, Canada
- Contact:
It certainly sounds like your rings are to blame. With exhaust that color on a B21 the rings are almost for sure the problem.
It absolutely does matter what the normal psi of a cylinder is, and yes, they should be close to the same. I'm not too sure about the B21, although it should be very similar to the B20A5. The B20A5 compression numbers are as follows:
Standard: 171psi
Limit: 135 psi
Difference between cylinders: 28
The B21A1 is the same block with a slightly different head, so my guess is that the numbers for the B21 would be very close, if not the same. Remember also that compression test numbers that are too high can be a bad thing as well.
My guess is that you'll do the compression test and find that your cylinders are getting low, but not dismal compression. Maybe 140 psi or so. There's a good chance that the #3 cylinder will be the lowest too.
As for the turbo, you can start by getting the exhaust intake, but you also need to start spending a lot of time researching fuel management and turbo sizing to get the rest of your setup figured out.
It absolutely does matter what the normal psi of a cylinder is, and yes, they should be close to the same. I'm not too sure about the B21, although it should be very similar to the B20A5. The B20A5 compression numbers are as follows:
Standard: 171psi
Limit: 135 psi
Difference between cylinders: 28
The B21A1 is the same block with a slightly different head, so my guess is that the numbers for the B21 would be very close, if not the same. Remember also that compression test numbers that are too high can be a bad thing as well.
My guess is that you'll do the compression test and find that your cylinders are getting low, but not dismal compression. Maybe 140 psi or so. There's a good chance that the #3 cylinder will be the lowest too.
As for the turbo, you can start by getting the exhaust intake, but you also need to start spending a lot of time researching fuel management and turbo sizing to get the rest of your setup figured out.
-
90Luder2.05
- Lude Dude
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:52 pm
Hey thanks for all the great info,
I was wondering if anyone has or had done a engine swap of a 2.2L 5th gen (i guess this is the H22?) into a 2.05L 3rd gen (B21A1).
Can this be done? One thing I guess is the room to work with also, too will the tranny be able to swap as well?
The newer engine and tranny would give me a greater base and opens the door to larger array of aftermarket products available.
This 90 Prelude was the car I always wanted when I graduated high school back in 1991, so I would like to keep it plus I don't have a whole lot of money tied up in it, I want to turn this car into a pretty mean street tuner with some good reliable HP. Once this motor comes out again I will be doing close to a total restoration on it, everything is coming out, suspension, exhaust, brake lines, probably fuel too, depending on what I find out about fuel management systems and turbo systems.
Again if you can help or point me on the right direction that would be great. Thanks
I was wondering if anyone has or had done a engine swap of a 2.2L 5th gen (i guess this is the H22?) into a 2.05L 3rd gen (B21A1).
Can this be done? One thing I guess is the room to work with also, too will the tranny be able to swap as well?
The newer engine and tranny would give me a greater base and opens the door to larger array of aftermarket products available.
This 90 Prelude was the car I always wanted when I graduated high school back in 1991, so I would like to keep it plus I don't have a whole lot of money tied up in it, I want to turn this car into a pretty mean street tuner with some good reliable HP. Once this motor comes out again I will be doing close to a total restoration on it, everything is coming out, suspension, exhaust, brake lines, probably fuel too, depending on what I find out about fuel management systems and turbo systems.
Again if you can help or point me on the right direction that would be great. Thanks
-
spiffyguido
- Moderator
- Posts: 2196
- Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:55 am
- Prelude Model: 1991 SE-SR
- Location: Alberta, Canada
- Contact:
There are people who have put an H22 in 3rd generation preludes, but this is not as easy as it might seem. The H22 is a pretty large motor for the engine bay of a 3rd gen prelude, and a lot of modification has to be done in order to get it to fit. I generally discourage people from attempting this swap unless they really understand what they are getting themselves into. Swapping in an H22 is an expensive swap. You'll need new axles, engine mounts, engine, tranny, ecu etc.
If I were you, I would stick with your B21A1. B21s are great engines, and a joy to work on, and they're not that common to own. You won't make as much power as an H22 initially, but with some work, you could. I would guess that you would spend less turboing the B21A1 than you would swapping in an H22.
I can provide more info if you'd like. And, I'm not trying to crush your dreams here, but I think that we have to take an honest look at what is realistically feasible. Swapping in an H22 is a huge project with pros and cons. I've considered doing it myself even, but I decided to stick with engines that made the 3rd gens such great cars in the first place. You will sacrific some handling with a big heavy H22 up front, and I hear the oil pan of the H22 hangs very near the ground as it is a taller engine than the B20A5 and B21A1.
If I were you, I would stick with your B21A1. B21s are great engines, and a joy to work on, and they're not that common to own. You won't make as much power as an H22 initially, but with some work, you could. I would guess that you would spend less turboing the B21A1 than you would swapping in an H22.
I can provide more info if you'd like. And, I'm not trying to crush your dreams here, but I think that we have to take an honest look at what is realistically feasible. Swapping in an H22 is a huge project with pros and cons. I've considered doing it myself even, but I decided to stick with engines that made the 3rd gens such great cars in the first place. You will sacrific some handling with a big heavy H22 up front, and I hear the oil pan of the H22 hangs very near the ground as it is a taller engine than the B20A5 and B21A1.
-
90Luder2.05
- Lude Dude
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:52 pm
yeah thats cool, I was just doing a little research before I started looking for the engine. I think that I will just find another B21A1 and start tearing into it, maybe replacing the rods and pistons (rings too) to handle a bit more horsepower. Crack the head off and send it in to the machine shop to have it re vaulved and shaved, also put in a couple hot cams. Replace the head gasket with a metal one if available. I've heard about moving the battery to the trunk to allow enough room to put in a cold air intake system. I will need to research more on the fuel system, what can be done here, I will be looking for a turbo system to put on the car so how should I set this up? I will also be replacing the axles with some that will withstand a little more torque. (Besides the ones I have now need replacing) Again thanks for the info plus saving me a whole lot of cash.
Here is a pic from about a year ago, dropping the used B21A1 I got online, the old motor had a huge hole knocked thru the #2 piston, It looks like the rod cracked on the bottom and shucked forward and the crank just blasted it thru the cylinder wall. I've never seen a rod thrown in a honda motor before.
Here is a pic from about a year ago, dropping the used B21A1 I got online, the old motor had a huge hole knocked thru the #2 piston, It looks like the rod cracked on the bottom and shucked forward and the crank just blasted it thru the cylinder wall. I've never seen a rod thrown in a honda motor before.
-
spiffyguido
- Moderator
- Posts: 2196
- Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:55 am
- Prelude Model: 1991 SE-SR
- Location: Alberta, Canada
- Contact:
Rob,
What you're going to do sounds awesome. I'm actually working on a very similar project myself, except I'm working on a B20A5 motor.
If you're planning on adding more than about 4 or 5 psi of boost you will need to upgrade the fuel system. I think the OEM MAP sensor can only sense a small amount of boost to tell the ECU to richen the mixture. Most people get around this by using a new FMU, such as Hondata, or by modifying their ECU. There is also a trick called a V-AFC hack that is supposed to work, but I've never seen it done.
Keep us updated on your project and hit us back with more questions. Take lots of pictures and we'll put them up on the PreludeDriver.com server for you if you want. I'm going to be putting some stuff from my own project up pretty soon.
Great picture btw.
What you're going to do sounds awesome. I'm actually working on a very similar project myself, except I'm working on a B20A5 motor.
If you're planning on adding more than about 4 or 5 psi of boost you will need to upgrade the fuel system. I think the OEM MAP sensor can only sense a small amount of boost to tell the ECU to richen the mixture. Most people get around this by using a new FMU, such as Hondata, or by modifying their ECU. There is also a trick called a V-AFC hack that is supposed to work, but I've never seen it done.
Keep us updated on your project and hit us back with more questions. Take lots of pictures and we'll put them up on the PreludeDriver.com server for you if you want. I'm going to be putting some stuff from my own project up pretty soon.
Great picture btw.
-
90Luder2.05
- Lude Dude
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:52 pm
-
spiffyguido
- Moderator
- Posts: 2196
- Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:55 am
- Prelude Model: 1991 SE-SR
- Location: Alberta, Canada
- Contact:
I think most people that don't employ the V-AFC hack use an new fuel management system.
I've never heard of someone using a new MAP sensor because I think that the problem with the map sensor is also in the ECU. The fuel table in the ECU will only accept MAP sensor values up to a point. Even if the MAP sensor could sense the higher pressures and ECU wouldn't know what to do with the input. Not positive, but I think that's the issue.
This is why, I predict, that people have been using this V-AFC hack. I don't know what exactly they're doing, but I'm guessing they're fooling the MAP sensor to keep its output within acceptable levels for the ECU and then pairing that with larger injectors to get the fuel they need. This likely works, but my guess is that an new fuel management system would be a far better option and would likely be more reliable too. Remember that where forced induction is concerned the fuel system is not a place to go cheap. A lean fuel-air condition in a boosted motor can make for some seriously bad detonation, and that's a great way to wreck an engine. Better safe than sorry.
I've never heard of someone using a new MAP sensor because I think that the problem with the map sensor is also in the ECU. The fuel table in the ECU will only accept MAP sensor values up to a point. Even if the MAP sensor could sense the higher pressures and ECU wouldn't know what to do with the input. Not positive, but I think that's the issue.
This is why, I predict, that people have been using this V-AFC hack. I don't know what exactly they're doing, but I'm guessing they're fooling the MAP sensor to keep its output within acceptable levels for the ECU and then pairing that with larger injectors to get the fuel they need. This likely works, but my guess is that an new fuel management system would be a far better option and would likely be more reliable too. Remember that where forced induction is concerned the fuel system is not a place to go cheap. A lean fuel-air condition in a boosted motor can make for some seriously bad detonation, and that's a great way to wreck an engine. Better safe than sorry.