First Honda Help Needed!!!

Fourth Generation Honda Prelude topics

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anthonymoralez
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Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:45 pm

First Honda Help Needed!!!

Post by anthonymoralez »

Hello everyone I’m Anthony and I’m just come out with it right from the gate. This is the first Honda that I’m going to build; the last time I build a car fuel injection was a new idea. But my son is of driving age and he like these kinds of cars so I’m game it be fun to turn a wrench again. I myself am an old muscle car guy, but more than willing to learn.
I’ve been doing a lot of reading on the different engines H, K, F, blue tops red tops, and black tops. (What happened to big blocks and small blocks?) Anyway I have an H23a1usdm (I’m assuming), if I want to make that a VTEC all I would have to do is get an H22 head but I would have a lower redline. These little engines need higher RPM’s to say within the power band right? So that head would not do me any good. The differences that I see between the H23a1 Non-VTEC and the H22a1 VTEC are; H23a1 has a big bore and stroke and displacement. The H22a1 has a .2 better compression 30bhp more power, 2 lb-ft more torque, 1000 more RPM’s and variable timing and lift. In my day the bigger the block the better for the most part anyway, but I’m learning that not the case anymore.
Now if I pulled and rebuild my engine can’t I match if not beat that H22a1 VTEC? Or would it be best to get one of those JDM motor tear it down and drop a few G’s into it. I would like to boost it, and I’ve read in a few places that some engines don’t respond to the turbo well and the VTEC is one of them. Don’t know if it’s true or not. Man there’s a lot to learn. This by no means is going to be an overnight build I plan to start with suspension and brakes, but I need to know what power plant I’m going to have and build around it.
The last engine I build was a 396 big block bore out and blown. It went into a 62 Nova it was a beast pushing 700 horses. I know that I wouldn’t get that out of a 4 banger but I’d like to try. Then life happened and other than basic stuff I havn't been under a hood
Last thing I have a registered 93 prelude 4ws si but the sticker says it was build in August of 92 So what do I have a 92 or 93?
Sorry this got long but thank you everyone for your time.

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spiffyguido
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Prelude Model: 1991 SE-SR
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Re: First Honda Help Needed!!!

Post by spiffyguido »

Welcome to the forums, Anthony.

If you want a VTEC engine, I really think the easiest thing to do would be to just get a full H22 engine. The H22 head can go on the H23, but there's some pain points, such as the timing gears not having the same number of teeth, etc. Having said that, I have heard of some people experiencing great success with turbo setups that feature an H22 head on an H23 block. Obviously they do this because the lower compression, bigger displacement and longer stroke length of the H23 makes a better base for a turbo build. My personal preference would probably be to just throw some new pistons or rods into the H22 to lower the compression that way and then add the turbo.

If you're serious about going the turbo route, just stick with the H23. It's a good engine. With turbo, having VTEC will just make tuning loads more complicated. The two systems can play nicely together, but it would be far simpler to just build a proper turbo setup. You'll have an easier time tuning it.

As far as the build, for high boost, you'll probably need to get stronger rods (forged) and potentially new pistons if you want to change the compression ratio. The crank is fine (Honda cranks are consistently VERY strong, good for about 800hp). If you're really going to make a ton of power, new head bolts and a deck plate are often suggested.

If it were me, I would probably just throw in the H22. They make 200hp, and the VTEC implementation in them is one of Honda's best. A really great engine. Plenty of power to make the car fun to drive, without making it dangerous.

If you're leaning towards the turbo route, a user called RedRacer will probably chime in. I believe his lude is still boosted.

anthonymoralez
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Re: First Honda Help Needed!!!

Post by anthonymoralez »

Thank you for tips, I was reading more and I'm kinda leaning to just keeping my block and head get it cleaned up and some told me I should sleeve the piston walls just to make it more durable is that right? (Keeping the crank save $$$) Can you port and polish the head? I ask because it aluminum. I hope Red racer does chime in. Thanks again

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spiffyguido
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Re: First Honda Help Needed!!!

Post by spiffyguido »

If you're going to run high boost, new cylinder walls might be a good idea. I'm not sure of the exact value, but this would likely be advised for turbo setups with more than 300hp or so.

The head can be ported and polished. Best place to start is to just deburr the cast intake manifold and the runners in the head. You can also do port matching. It requires a lot of time with a dremel, but if you're sticking with a naturally aspirated setup, it might help a bit. If you're turboing, your time might be better spent elsewhere.

anthonymoralez
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Re: First Honda Help Needed!!!

Post by anthonymoralez »

Thanks again that gives me more to read about. I'm figuring that I'll be starting this adventure in about 6 months or so. That gives me time to research and pool so $$$ together. My engine only has 84k original miles on it so there is on hurry on that. Right now I just want to get as much info in it as I can. This is the first project car that I've had in a very long time so I really want to do it right.

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RedRacer
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Re: First Honda Help Needed!!!

Post by RedRacer »

I'll be the first to tell anyone who asks, I did not build my turbo. As I got a little older, better job, some degree of financial security and a little more disposable income, I just hired a guy (a very good guy) to do it for me. So I'm not the leading edge expert, but I learned as he worked. I really didn't want to know how or why. I just wanted it done and I didn't want to lose my AC or sacrifice the stock looks of my car.

He did an awesome job! Installed the turbo unit upside down so the AC could remain in factory positioning. He created from scratch, a custom, one of a kind radiator/oil cooler/intercooler that you won't find in any car, anywhere else in the world. We don't call him MacGuyver for nothing. He's THAT good.

Spiffy has given some good advice and some thought to things that you may not have considered. All good.

My advice - Economically and common sense-wise, the logical thing to do is boost what you've got. It's a lot easier to build the crap out of the current engine and boost it, than start all over from scratch with a swap and boost, etc. I'd suggest that you keep the h23, rebuild the internals and turbo that with a t3/t4. Sure you can have a 12 or maybe even 11 sec car if you do it right and say run like 22psi. (NOT a good idea for a daily driver though)

The main reason that I stayed with my H23a is because it's what my mechanic suggested. It's just a better block and engine to boost. Also, the H23's are not usually run as hard as the VTEC engines and are in better shape....so, logically, you are better off with a good H23 than a ragged H22 that somebody has worn the hell out of running VTEC every time he put his foot in the throttle.

As explained to me, the only real advantage to using the H22 is because you're jumping from 158bhp in the H23 to 183bhp in the VTEC engine. Do the math. Boosting an engine that has 25 more horses is putting you ahead of the pack. But for the purpose, that turbo, if it's done right and you're running say 8 to 10 psi or more, is gonna give you plenty of power for what you're driving.

Another option would be to put your H23 block internals into the H22a and gain the.1 liter. You could also build your H23 block, get it sleeved, balanced crank and just built bottom end, then build an H22 head and put that on top, for the best of both worlds. But, you'd have to do a little more work than just swapping the internals into the h22a.

Like I said, I went the route I went because MacGuyver told me that was the best thing. He was the one who persuaded me to stay with the engine I had already under the hood (very wise in the end)

Right now she's running, according to dyno, around 263 hp @10 psi. Like I said, my mechanic is truly "MacGuyver." He can do things with tools and metal that I could only dream of.

Sure, you can buy an H22 and do a swap and you can work that engine and make it just as good, most likely better, than the H23. But I would recommend starting with what you have and building it up. The end result if done right, won't leave that much variable between the two.

anthonymoralez
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Re: First Honda Help Needed!!!

Post by anthonymoralez »

Thanks for the help Red Racer. I'm sure that's what I'm going to do,,, Keep the H23 and build it!! You said that keeping the A/C was a bit of a problem with a turbo,,, Can you explan that a bit more so I'm prepared once I get to that point.

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RedRacer
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Re: First Honda Help Needed!!!

Post by RedRacer »

anthonymoralez wrote:Thanks for the help Red Racer. I'm sure that's what I'm going to do,,, Keep the H23 and build it!! You said that keeping the A/C was a bit of a problem with a turbo,,, Can you explan that a bit more so I'm prepared once I get to that point.

It's not a particular issue, just more of a preference.

Most people who are modding a car like this for speed and performance feel that the AC is not essential and should be removed for the weight factor and the pull that it places on the engine. Also they'll dump the ABS system and power steering.

And this turbo unit, being put in "by the book", required a portion of the space occupied by the AC and AC plumbing. He wanted to remove it but I told him to figure out a way to work around it or we just wouldn't do it. He turned it upside down and routed all the turbo piping appropriately and it worked out fine.

Why I have to have AC......> I live in Alabama. I wanted this car to be faster than the average H22 Vtec Prelude but I did not want to have to do it in the heat and humidity. It stays hot and humid down here from late April until mid November. So most of the year one has to have AC in their car to be comfortable. I am a comfort-cat kinda guy and I refuse to not have AC.

It's not always necessary to remove the AC for fit, and definitely not, in my book, necessary to remove it for the weight and speed factor. There are plenty of things one can do to negate these factors.

When this car was tuned right with the first T4 turbo and the boost and ECU programs at their optimum, it was dynoed at 302 bhp.... but he felt that was too much for me to be driving everyday (for the sake of the internals and the block) so he put in the smaller unit. I like it better anyway because it gives a better off the line response than the bigger turbo. I've already got good enough high end power, so I was happy with the switch.

Like I said, I'm not a racer, I just like the car having the surprise factor for the morons out there who think they really ARE Speedracer. So the setup I have works great for me and I can get more out of it if I want to, with little to no effort or money required.



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